Contradusta lapillus Poppe, Tagaro & Groh, 2013 voir Contradusta walkeri walkeri

Une nouvelle espèce vient de faire son apparition au WoRMS :

Cypraea lapillus (Contradusta) - Poppe, Tagaro & Groh, 2013

Quelqu'un a t'il des infos sur cette espèce ?

Bernard

Elle est décrite dans le dernier Visaya.
Pour certains il ne s'agirait que d'une forme pâle de Cyp. walkeri mais les auteurs assurent que l'animal est différent.

Contradusta lapillus - Poppe, Tagaro & Groh, 2013
Spécimen de 21.5 mm, chaluté par 100 à 150 mètres - Surigao del Sur, Philippines
(image du spécimen actuellement aux enchères sur Shell Auction Net)

Ce ne sont que des walkeri... et si je regarde bien, je dois en avoir quelques dizaines en stock de similaires... localité différente ou forme de profondeur ??? à voir... mais bon, de là à en faire une nouvelle espèce c'est abusé à mon sens... enfin... avec l'ADN il semblerait que chaque spécimen est une espèce a part entière de nos jours... on n’arrête plus le progrès... LOL

En tout cas, il est toujours intéressant de voir qui décrit... et quoi de mieux que toutes ces nouvelles "pseudo-espèces" pour pouvoir refourguer les fonds de tiroirs...

Oui mais à décrire tout à partir de l'ADN c'est la porte ouverte au arnaques car nous collectionneurs n'avons pas la possibilité de faire nos propres études adn ...

Voici un message reçu de Conchology,Inc :

This was as such already centuries ago, when Linnaeus described the fake cowry "Cypraea amethystina" and it was as such in the golden time of shell collecting when the king of shell dealers of the 20th century, Gino Raybaudi, was trapped with the "teramachii splendida" in 1995. It is still so today. We got lured in by local dealers and our trust was shamefully misused. We acquired 10 faked Contradusta lapillus without knowing it. Fortunately, the real C. lapillus exists, and now over a hundred pieces have been found.



"Contradusta lapillus Poppe, Tagaro & Groh, 2013". "The real one"




Freshly caught two days before this photograph, preserved in alcohol.

Things went as follows: our company sponsored some fisherman working deep waters offshore Surigao, by purchasing at a handsome price their catches. To our big surprise they fished a white cowry, close to - but different from - what is called Contradusta walkeri. We offered a few pieces to selected Cowry collectors and auctioned one shell, which went for about 400 Euro to a Belgian collector.

After a close examination, and as material slowly poured in, we decided to describe the cowry. While researching information, we stated that this cowry is found about everywhere in the Visaya's when one goes 100 m deep. Sheila P. Tagaro even photographed a specimen dredged in Panglao in 2004 during her assignment in the now famous and legendary "Panglao expedition 2004".

So, things went very well and Visaya appeared with the description of "Contradusta lapillus Poppe, Tagaro & Groh, 2013", in time for the Paris shell show. During that shell show, Felix Lorenz acquired about 30 pieces from a well-known French dealer also living in the Philippines. While scrutinizing his material, Felix came to the conclusion that the materials were fake C. walkeri. He tested out heating and could produce the same shells.

At the same time, shells appeared everywhere, especially also on a popular auction site. A telephone call to the Belgian collector learned me that he wanted to describe the new item: he could acquire several more, directly from Philippine dealers.

I was shocked and an investigation was highly needed. So, we called and interrogated many fishermen and middlemen. The truth became apparent very quickly: after our auction, local dealers often get the photographs of our auction shells from Europe and America with questions from collectors "to purchase" these items cheaper. A quite naïve action, as most of our auction pieces are difficult to find and even very often they are unique.

The son of a famous local dealer was immediately focused and went to the local "shell doctor" with pieces of walkeri which were then heated in "cooking oil", so the color turned pale and resembles the C. lapillus.



A C. walkeri - cooked. The Fake "lapillus".

The French dealer acquired about 20 of these fakes, Conchology, 10 pieces. All offerings were made drop-wise of course. Many fakes went abroad. The shells offered by one dealer on this auction site are another story. One of the fisherman, paid indirectly by our company, took the shells out of the dredged material when there was no supervision. He then sold these to one of the dealers active on the auction site.

It took us a trip to Surigao to find this out. We also obtained there a dozen of C. lapillus which we now have in alcohol and of which some will be used for molecular research, also in order to see differences with C. walkeri.

According to Felix Lorenz, the correct genus should be "Ficadusta" and in the worst case the new name can be used for what is now called the classic Philippine walkeri (not the surabajensis).

Conchology, Inc. sold 4 of the fake cowries. They are replaced with genuine ones of course. The difference between the fakes and the real C. lapillus is hardly visible. Real lapillus are usually smaller than the fakes, usually a little more slender and usually the pattern typical for "surabajensis" is less visible. The color is most often more yellowish. In the batch of shells, which F. Lorenz returned to the French dealer, there were 10 genuine shells. This was confirmed to me by the fisherman. It may explain why some of his shells lighted up differently under UV. The few shells that I've seen on the auction site (only 5) were genuine. But this morning I met the "shell doctor" who got a truly big smile: faking shells is definitely not yet finished.





Sheila P. Tagaro with our fishermen in Surigao. I enlarge the two day catch, as for sure you are very curious to see what's in the box !

So far this very frustrating but fascinating story about fakes, one more chapter in the history of shell collecting.

Bernard

Merci Bernard pour cette info détaillé, et cela permet aussi de mettre un visage sur des noms connus.
En somme c'est une walkeri jaune, un peu comme la variante de la salariensis f. fulva.
AA++

Blablabla... lol... jolie histoire... parfait pour un roman...

Je pense que je me suis trompé...... Quoique......... pourtant cela m'avait choqué. 
Je connais bien le Cypraea walkeri f.lapillus. 
Merci, et attendons d'autres avis car je ne crois pas avoir revé.   

Henri Luchesi a écrit:
Je connais bien le Cypraea walkeri f.lapillus. 

C'est la Cypraea walkeri f. lapillus qui est devenue Cypraea lapillus

Bernard

Il y a un article paru dans la revue "Vissaya" n° iV -1

D'autre part j'ai reçu ce mail reçu de Guido:

Désolé il est en anglais ... mais avis aux amateurs attention aux faux!

THE FAKE LAPILLUS CASE
The "Binabuy" is a particular good choice as symbol of this newsletter because some collectors now prefer the "fakes" when the the real thing is too expensive. Some dealers, especially suppliers from the Philippines, use the replacement "fake" in case they cannot get the real shell.
This was as such already centuries ago, when Linnaeus described the fake cowry "Cypraea amethystina" and it was as such in the golden time of shell collecting when the king of shell dealers of the 20th century, Gino Raybaudi, was trapped with the "teramachii splendida" in 1995. It is still so today. We got lured in by local dealers and our trust was shamefully misused. We acquired 10 faked Contradusta lapillus without knowing it. Fortunately, the real C. lapillus exists, and now over a hundred pieces have been found.

Things went as follows: our company sponsored some fisherman working deep waters offshore Surigao, by purchasing at a handsome price their catches. To our big surprise they fished a white cowry, close to - but different from - what is called Contradusta walkeri. We offered a few pieces to selected Cowry collectors and auctioned one shell, which went for about 400 Euro to a Belgian collector.
After a close examination, and as material slowly poured in, we decided to describe the cowry. While researching information, we stated that this cowry is found about everywhere in the Visaya's when one goes 100 m deep. Sheila P. Tagaro even photographed a specimen dredged in Panglao in 2004 during her assignment in the now famous and legendary "Panglao expedition 2004".
So, things went very well and Visaya appeared with the description of "Contradusta lapillus Poppe, Tagaro & Groh, 2013", in time for the Paris shell show. During that shell show, Felix Lorenz acquired about 30 pieces from a well-known French dealer also living in the Philippines. While scrutinizing his material, Felix came to the conclusion that the materials were fake C. walkeri. He tested out heating and could produce the same shells.
At the same time, shells appeared everywhere, especially also on a popular auction site. A telephone call to the Belgian collector learned me that he wanted to describe the new item: he could acquire several more, directly from Philippine dealers.
I was shocked and an investigation was highly needed. So, we called and interrogated many fishermen and middlemen. The truth became apparent very quickly: after our auction, local dealers often get the photographs of our auction shells from Europe and America with questions from collectors "to purchase" these items cheaper. A quite naïve action, as most of our auction pieces are difficult to find and even very often they are unique.
The son of a famous local dealer was immediately focused and went to the local "shell doctor" with pieces of walkeri which were then heated in "cooking oil", so the color turned pale and resembles the C. lapillus.
The French dealer acquired about 20 of these fakes, Conchology, 10 pieces. All offerings were made drop-wise of course. Many fakes went abroad. The shells offered by one dealer on this auction site are another story. One of the fisherman, paid indirectly by our company, took the shells out of the dredged material when there was no supervision. He then sold these to one of the dealers active on the auction site.
It took us a trip to Surigao to find this out. We also obtained there a dozen of C. lapillus which we now have in alcohol and of which some will be used for molecular research, also in order to see differences with C. walkeri.
According to Felix Lorenz, the correct genus should be "Ficadusta" and in the worst case the new name can be used for what is now called the classic Philippine walkeri (not the surabajensis).
Conchology, Inc. sold 4 of the fake cowries. They are replaced with genuine ones of course. The difference between the fakes and the real C. lapillus is hardly visible. Real lapillus are usually smaller than the fakes, usually a little more slender and usually the pattern typical for "surabajensis" is less visible. The color is most often more yellowish. In the batch of shells, which F. Lorenz returned to the French dealer, there were 10 genuine shells. This was confirmed to me by the fisherman. It may explain why some of his shells lighted up differently under UV. The few shells that I've seen on the auction site (only 5) were genuine. But this morning I met the "shell doctor" who got a truly big smile: faking shells is definitely not yet finished.

Contradusta lapillus  -Poppe, Tagaro & Groh, 2013

Spécimen de 21 mm pris au filet entre 100 et 150 mètres de profondeur au large de Lipata, Surigao, Philippines

 

- à gauche : Contradusta walkeri (Sowerby I, 1832)   25 mm
- à droite : Contradusta lapillus - Poppe, Tagaro & Groh, 2013   21 mm

L'intêret de cette photo et de montrer deux spécimens chalutés dans le même secteur entre 100 et 150 mètres au large de Lipata, Surigao, Philippines
On voit que Contradusta lapillus diffère de Contradusta walkeri par les interstices entre les dents columellaires qui sont non pigmentés

Très joli spécimen.....    

Bernard

Celle-ci draguée PI Lipata,  Surigao-100~150m   T:23mm

belle coquille 

Jolie acquisition Franck
Bernard

Spécimen fraîchement pêché (pas nettoyé, je sais Nanard!) de 21 mm
draguée -150 m  Lipata, Surigao, Philippines

Hello,

Je viens de passer quelques jours à Punta Engano et on m'a proposé des dizaines de lapillus. Etant incapable de distinguer le vrai du fake, je n'en ai pas achetée.

Celle de Rhum semble vraie...mais il est vrai aussi que les fausses sont habituellement garnies de "viande" a posteriori :)

Mon conseil : ne mettez pas tout votre budget dans une lapillus. C'est quand même l'un des plus beaux faits d'arme des shell doctors de ces dernières années !

Bonjour,
Les deux de gauche sont des lapillus 21 et 23 mm et viennent de l'ile de Siargao aux Philippines - 150 m
Les deux de droite ??? même provenance pourraient en être aussi ?

J'aurais plutot dit les deux de droite en sont; celles de gauche??

Bernard merci,
On arrivera jamais à voter du même côté si on a pas la même gauche. Donc je prétends que les 1 & 2 (A gauche) sont des Lapillus
Je ne sais pas pour les 3 & 4

ok avec Rhum........... 2 sûre (3,4) et 2 (1,2) peut-être. Mais je n' en ai pas pour comparer.

Merci à tous les deux
J'ai acheté les deux de gauche comme étant des lapillus et les deux de droite en cadeau !
Vive ebay